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Do you believe gays should be allowed in the military?

The Associated Press has reported that President Obama is going to allow gays in the military. He is going to end the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Do you agree with this policy?

The article: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hZUjpkw6hIX3KDjuV8xK0idc_H0wD9B8MJ6G0
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Marked as Best! October 11, 2009 12:25 PM
My opinion is that the people who actually are in the Armed services are not only best qualified, but inhabit an infinitely higher moral ground from which to make this decision. I would certainly bow to the opinion of the men and women who are putting their lives on the line to protect mine. If they are in favor of allowing gays to serve openly, then I support them. If they are not in favor, I still support them. I have a real tough time assuming moral superiority over individuals who are willing to lay down their lives to protect mine by telling them what they must believe, or by altering their current working conditions without their input, simply because I think it's right.

The push for change is not coming from within the ranks of the military establishment so far as I can tell. It is from Obama and others who (like him) have either never served a day, or are no longer on active duty.

The most recent poll that I've seen of active duty members of the military, the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect my life, is published in Military Times, December 29, 2008. The survey shows that most are opposed to lifting the ban, but most would not leave the service if it happened. Ten percent said they would not re-inlist, and 14% would consider not re-enlisting. I couldn't find the actual numbers or percentages of those opposed published in this article, although "National Review" gave a 58% figure in their review of the "Military Times" survey.

Here are organization opposed to and in favor of the ban, if you are interested in some biased reporting (I am not):

Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (link to website): Dedicated to removing the ban.

Center for Military Readiness (link to website): Dedicated to preserving the ban.

I thought this CNN video gave some good points on both sides of the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zUX5D6t0_U
Source(s):
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/05/ap_dont_ask_no_change_051909/
http://www.palmcenter.org/files/active/0/104Generals11-17-08.pdf
http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDVlN2FiZjhhNTA3N2JkNjJiM2ExNDAxNjJm...
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2008/12/122908_military_poll_DADT/
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October 11, 2009 01:26 PM
Excellent, well thought out and sourced answer. Thanks!
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October 11, 2009 06:34 AM
As long as they "don't ask and don't tell" it shouldn't be a problem. Sexual orientation shouldn't be an issue in military matters, IMO.
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October 11, 2009 07:38 AM
Should matter as long as they are tryin to do anything sexual with any fellow soliders
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October 11, 2009 07:42 AM
Gays should be allowed in the military. At this point, anything else violates federal protections against discrimination and will result in a Supreme Court battle, with plaintiffs seeking to modify the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Currently, it would require a direct order for a change from the Commander in Chief (CIC).

The "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy implemented by President Clinton was a compromise. As long as a person is willing and able to perform the duties required of him/her, his/her sexual preference should have no bearing on whether he/she is fit for duty. The whole bias against homosexuals in military service was largely predicated, initially, on the an older Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) definition (through DSM-II) which classified homosexuality as a mental disorder. On that basis, applicants were turned away and active service members were discharged on a Military Section 8 (a dishonorable discharge), depriving them of benefits. Once the DSM no longer classified homosexuality as a mental disorder (with the advent of DSM-III in 1980), the military was left without grounds to discharge except under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Dishonorable discharge for known homosexuals was still mandated. If orientation was suspected but unknown, Commanding Officers could still ask and subsequently discharge subordinates.

At least Clinton's policy forbid the asking of questions and discouraged against declarations of orientation. Because the UCMJ still holds jurisdiction, declaration of homosexual orientation still results in discharge for conduct unbecoming. To appease conservatives and mollify liberals, Clinton compromised (making neither sector happy).
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Di...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_%28military%29
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October 11, 2009 01:30 PM
Thank you for your well researched historical answer. Great job!
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October 11, 2009 07:47 AM
Gay or straight, it really doesn't matter when it comes to serving the country. Anyone willing to join the military as long as he/she is physically fit and a disciplined person should be given a chance to do so. I believe, like strabismus said, sexuality or sexual orientation has nothing to do with the will of joining the military. Isn't it a brave act, sacrificing your life just to protect your country and maintain its peace and harmony? If you think of it in a deeper sense, they are "man enough" to be involved in that idea. Gays are normal people too. They are biologically
"men". They do possess strength, knowledge like any other straight men.

As long as gays do not abuse their right and do their duties accordingly, no problem will arise. Gays and straight should be treated the same. In the military, the main goal is to serve the country so everyone should not let their personality or sexuality to be a hindrance. Just loyalty,love for God and country.
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October 11, 2009 08:16 AM
The whole issue is kinda rediculous... rediculous that people worry about stuff like that when there's way more important stuff to deal with.

Studies have been done on sexual orientation as a function of chosen career, and there are some interesting numbers.

The career with the highest percentage of gays is IT... but that's no suprise to anyone in the IT industry.

Number two was the military. It's always been that way, and it's always been that a person's sexual orientation was their own business and nobody cares as long as you keep it off the base and off the battlefield.

If you're a good fighter then you're a good fighter. It's not easy to find good fighters, so when you have found someone who is, it's easy to ignore their personal proclivities as long as they don't be a pest about it.

What Obama is doing is decriminalizing something that's always been there, and which has historically been controlled with extreme discipile.

For example, even though everyone in the armed forces knows that sailors have the highest rate of homosexuality, the penalties for being caught at it were extreme, even up into relatively modern times. For example, during WW-II, if sailors in the Canadian Navy were caught doing buggery, they could be thrown overboard, and the paperwork was written up as "missing in action".

In peace time the punishment was not so severe, but the message was and is the same... nobody cares as long as you keep it private... off the ship, off the base and off the battlefield.

And how's that so different from strait soldiers, who are expected to keep their relationships off-base and out of other people's hair?

... Unless he marries her and goes career, in which case she moves onto the base and sets up house in military housing... in which case I suppose you're suggesting that two gay soldiers can be legaly married and set up house together in base housing... okay... I can see how that could look strange... although ancient warriors like Alexander the Great used to have cohabitation situations like that for himself and his troops all the time... so... hmm... we just might not be as progressive as people were back then... in a lot of ways we're still crawling out of that thousand year slide we did into the Dark Ages followed by the Puritanical backlash from the Calvinists who thought that Catholics who wanted to have their church lighten up were evil, and so reacted to invent Puritanicalism... one of the founding principals of ancient American society... so on *some* idiological levels we haven't got back to where society was at two and a half thousand years ago...

I guess ultimatly it boils down to how mature the society has become.

Do you think American society is up to the level of being able to handle it, and get back to looking at what's really important, which is whether or not the dude can do battle without going into shock the first time he sees the elephant, coming out of it with chronic stress fatigue?

What really matters is being able to find soldiers who can do battle without loosing their minds after the fact. If anyone can figure that one out, and if it turns out that gays happen to better if trained right, then I can assure you, if you've ever seen combat, then you'll know that nobody's going to give damn how faggy anyone is if he can achieve, and deliver, objectives.
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October 11, 2009 11:27 AM
Could you please share you sources? I'd like to read more about this.
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October 11, 2009 11:39 AM
Sources... hmm... O presume you mean about the issue of "seeing the elephant"?

The problem is, not matter how much and how thorough and how well the training is done, nobody knows how individuals will perform when they actually experience combat. The ones who can't handle it are actually a hazard in the battle field, but those who can are the ones who become your important, effective warriors.

The ones who can't handle it tend to get Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - aka PTSD - and that's something that can haunt a person for the rest of their life, so if you put someone not fit for combat into battle, then not only are they a hazard on the battlefield, but you've now created someone who's not going to be as functional as a member of society, and therefore you've done your society as disservice as well.

Consequently, that's one of the holy grails of recruiters... is to figure out how to tell at recruitment time is someone has the neurological makeup to be a good soldier, and it's just a fact that if somehow the neuropsychologiests were to discover that with the right training, gays made better solders, then in a second the recruiters would be zeroing in on those guys to get them signed up, with not one nanosecond of thought over whether or not it was popper of gays to be in the military.

The only thing that matters in war is to win, and the only thing you want is soldiers who can win battles.

The source was my neuropsych prof in university.
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October 11, 2009 12:31 PM
Yes, you know, sources places where I can verify your facts and learn more:
The studies on sexual orientation as a function of career,
The Canadian Navy murders,
The Alexander the Great allegation,

So your only source is what you remember from classroom lectures of a university professor? I'm disappointed as I would truly like to verify and research your answer. Oh well, My loss I guess.
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October 11, 2009 10:43 PM
S: "Yes, you know, sources places where I can verify your facts and learn more:"

R: Well, that's easy enough... just open your favorite search engine and enter the keywords.

S: "The studies on sexual orientation as a function of career,"

R: It was told to me by a drinking buddy who does career studies at one of the local universities. He knows I'm in IT, and he mentioned his study, and asked if I'd noticed the trend, and I shrugged and said something like, "Yeah, I'm not surpised... I've sorta noticed that a lot of the guys don't date women", and then he got a mischevious grin on his face and said, "Guess what number two is?". I said, "what?", and he said, "Military". We both had a laugh, and went on to talk about something else. That was about two years ago, so there's a good chance that it's been published by now, which means a simple search should find it.

S: "The Canadian Navy murders,"

R: They weren't classified as murders at the time... it was war, and there was still that gap in the mid-Atlantic where the German U-boats were able to move undetected by aerial reconiasance, so navy discipline was extreme at the time... and it was tied to the concept of being alert and always ready for action. This was told to me by a retired Naval officer I met in Ottawa during a trip there, when he and I got into a conversation over differences of methods of discipline between the US vs Canada/England/Austrailia/New-Zealand. He didn't say it was a policy, rather that it had been known to happen with those who had left their posts during the crossings the U-Boat zone, and who hadn't listened to their warnings.

Mostly, the point he wanted to make didn't really have anything to do with sexuality... it had to do with what we were really talking about, which was differences in the way that discipline was maintained, and really the point he wanted to make was that in England/Canada/Australia/New-Zealand they've never told their troops that they're supposed to love ther jobs, whereas in the US there seemed to be a tendancy to tell troops that they're supposed to be getting a real thrill out of being soldiers and sailers.

S: "The Alexander the Great allegation,"

R: That's not an "allegation". Alexander in no way tried to mask his bisexuality, nor did anyone else at the time.

S: "So your only source is what you remember from classroom lectures of a university professor? I'm disappointed as I would truly like to verify and research your answer. Oh well, My loss I guess."

R: Okay, look, I know that most of the guys I went to school with tended to forget what they'd learned two weeks after they'd written their final, but why's it a problem if I didn't? I went to school because I wanted to learn, and I didn't cram for exams, which is what causes people to forget what they were taught... I just listened and learned. That prof was standing up there teaching, and I learned it. Is it somehow less legitimate if it comes out of the mouth a professor teaching the stuff to a class than if... if what?

I've noticed a tendancy in Mahalo, and that's that if I just and answer a question because I happen to know the answer, people get upset, and seem to want to see lists of URL links.

To me, the reason for being here is to take a break from my normal duties, and just use it like a sort of Jeoprody, where it's entertaining to see if people are asking questions I happen to know the answer to, in which case it's usefull as mental excercice to keep the memory circuits alive, but it's almost like what's really expected here is for people who don't know the answer to jump onto search engines and find links to other people's comments about the question, such that the goal of Mahalo is to sift for people who are simply efficient search engine researchers.

Is that what it's for?
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October 11, 2009 11:11 PM
I'm sorry if that's sounding frustrated, but it's a pattern I'm seeing a lot on Mahalo. People want me to share my sources, so I do, and they get upset that it came out of memory, as if what was supposed to be happening is that I'm supposed to be reading a question that's interesting but which I not supposed to know the answer for, such that it's expected for me to go digging around the net with search engines, and then post links.

Is that the real objective of Mahalo... to produce a level of interwoven links, as a kind of human AI-supplemented search engine, as opposed to what would be called an Expert-System application in computer science?

If so, then someone should just say so. I thought it was a place to excercise memory and excercise the process of pulling bits and pieces of memory together to make new solutions. No?

I apologize if I'm missing something, but I don't know what to say when someone says, "Tell me your sources", and so I do, and they say, "Wrong kind." My professors, whom I paid to teach me, are now to be classified as invalid sources of information and learning?!?

What am I missing here?
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October 11, 2009 08:49 AM
Whether military personnel are male or female, fellow soldiers should be treated as colleagues. Nothing more, nothing less. As in any workplace, if something romantic happens then so be it. As long as it is consensual and does not affect the participants "work".
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October 11, 2009 03:12 PM
Sure! If they want to serve in our military, protect our country, and our citizens, then why can't they be allowed to serve openly? It's not like they are using the military as a place to "hook up" with other homosexuals. I'm sure there are far easier ways to do that.
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October 11, 2009 06:15 PM
Gays should be allowed as they have always been there, just silent.

Anyone who wants to put their lives on the line for their country should be allowed to do so!
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October 11, 2009 09:52 PM
The idea that gay people should not be allowed to serve and if they do then they need to keep it a secret is simply ridiculous. Gay people are no less capable of working in the military than straight people.

I really do not get how a man's sexuality comes into consideration when it comes to the military
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October 11, 2009 10:34 PM
YES! gays are human.
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October 12, 2009 12:26 AM
Yes if they are physically fit to do the work. They are smart enough to keep sexual banter to themselves.
Straights are smart enough to do the same. We need able body men and women wanting to serve our country.
I personally have a gay friend serving secretly now. The person is strong and willing to fight. go for it!
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October 12, 2009 12:28 AM
There are already gays in the military, and always have been. Anyone, regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation should be allowed to serve their country openly and proudly.
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October 12, 2009 03:29 AM
Well, joining the military is a personal option for any male or female. They have a right to serve and protect their country also. In a war, a person's relationship preference would not matter because they are a part of the United States of America. We are all one in the same. Working with a person that is gay should not matter as long as the job gets completed.
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