Conundrum Next Conundrum
If you believe in God, how can evil exist after you read this:
God is supposedly omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), and ultimately benevolent (the ultimate level of good). But if God is all three of these things, there's no way evil can exist:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is God able to prevent evil, but not willing?
Then he is not benevolent.
Is he both able and willing, but does not know about it?
Then he is not omniscient.
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
---Epicurus
But, clearly evil does exist. Humans do it everyday. God fails to prevent it, however.
A common response is "God gave humans free will." Basically, this means that God respects free choice more than human safety and happiness.
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is God able to prevent evil, but not willing?
Then he is not benevolent.
Is he both able and willing, but does not know about it?
Then he is not omniscient.
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
---Epicurus
But, clearly evil does exist. Humans do it everyday. God fails to prevent it, however.
A common response is "God gave humans free will." Basically, this means that God respects free choice more than human safety and happiness.
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November 28, 2009 08:48 PM
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Pain, suffering, and death are not evil. Given the appropriate circumstance, each is the correct result. Perhaps God knows that God's gift of these three are necessary for creation to function as God continues to create. Evil occurs when humans choose to inflict on each other one of the above unnecessarily, or through neglect, hatred, or ignorance, fails to alleviate that which can be alleviated. We are the authors of evil, not God. God even forgives us for blaming God for evil. God knows how we are fashioned and loves us anyway.
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November 28, 2009 08:52 PM
I never said God created evil. I'm just saying, if God has the 4 essential qualities of a supreme being (omniscience, omnipotence, benevolence, existence), then evil logically should not exist.
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November 28, 2009 09:54 PM
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I'm Atheist - so take this with a grain of salt if you will - but what I hear most often in response to your question, is that no one can even dream of understanding God's plan. He supposedly operates on such a much higher plane than us, that it would be like an ant trying to understand the thoughts of Einstein. So, if you believe He exists, all that is said about Him also demonstrates that He is an awesome being (as well as omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent).
You may be able to approach your question like this. What may be an evil event to us may have good consequences when given a bit of perspective. Bad events bring people together (bonding over natural disasters, deaths in the family), usher in a new and better era of history (think of the Flood), allow others to live (decaying bodies nourish the earth, dead animals give us sustenance), give us better perspective on how to deal with tragedies (history may repeat itself, but it does offer a good lesson should we need it), etc. Everything that may be "evil" now may be something that is considered useful or necessary in the future.
I found an essay you may be interested in reading (it addresses your question in a more religious manner): http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/suffering.htm
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You may be able to approach your question like this. What may be an evil event to us may have good consequences when given a bit of perspective. Bad events bring people together (bonding over natural disasters, deaths in the family), usher in a new and better era of history (think of the Flood), allow others to live (decaying bodies nourish the earth, dead animals give us sustenance), give us better perspective on how to deal with tragedies (history may repeat itself, but it does offer a good lesson should we need it), etc. Everything that may be "evil" now may be something that is considered useful or necessary in the future.
I found an essay you may be interested in reading (it addresses your question in a more religious manner): http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/suffering.htm
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November 28, 2009 10:22 PM
I'm atheist as well. This question was more or less geared towards any believers on the site to consider.
But, I see what you're saying, and I disagree. If God is the ultimate being, he can create a scenario where there is absolutely no pain and still get the desired result that you speak of. The whole benefit of being all-powerful is that you can create any scenario imaginable, even unimaginable. There is absolutely zero limit to your power.
You propose that the answer to pain is "it will all be better off in the end because of it". So you're aiming for a certain result. Let's call this result x. If we had no pain, we would end up with result "y". You propose that "x" is greater than "y". But, if God was all-powerful, he would be able to achieve "x" without evil or pain, because he is all-powerful. So it doesn't make sense to say that it all is for a better cause, unless God is not benevolent.
Not to mention this but utilitarianism (achieving the greatest good for the greatest number of people) is widely criticized for not taking into consideration motive or principle into consideration. God would clearly realize this if he is all-knowing and would not take a utilitarian approach.
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But, I see what you're saying, and I disagree. If God is the ultimate being, he can create a scenario where there is absolutely no pain and still get the desired result that you speak of. The whole benefit of being all-powerful is that you can create any scenario imaginable, even unimaginable. There is absolutely zero limit to your power.
You propose that the answer to pain is "it will all be better off in the end because of it". So you're aiming for a certain result. Let's call this result x. If we had no pain, we would end up with result "y". You propose that "x" is greater than "y". But, if God was all-powerful, he would be able to achieve "x" without evil or pain, because he is all-powerful. So it doesn't make sense to say that it all is for a better cause, unless God is not benevolent.
Not to mention this but utilitarianism (achieving the greatest good for the greatest number of people) is widely criticized for not taking into consideration motive or principle into consideration. God would clearly realize this if he is all-knowing and would not take a utilitarian approach.
November 28, 2009 11:18 PM
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@potterarchy did a fine job. It's refreshing to find someone with the ability to gain insight into someone else's viewpoints even if they differ from their own.
"Sin" exists and is allowed to because God gave us the freedom to choose. We're not robots that can be programmed and run down like little toys, being fixed when broken and put right back out to play.
If God behaved the way you proposed in your question there'd be no free will with any consequences whatsoever. The necessity to let this choice play out in our lives is to prove that His love and His plan is greater than our own and will work for any who choose to follow Him instead of their own hearts. As His creations He is proving to the universe (all of His creations, including Satan) that we aren't just a mistake that should be wiped out and reprogrammed. He loves us too much for that. One of the reasons why Satan got pissed off in the first place, jealousy.
The "greater good" is often mentioned because it's mentioned in the Bible (all things work together for good for them that love the Lord (paraphrased)), and for good reason in context. But there are horrible things that we can do to ourselves and others. If God stepped in and put a stop to it without letting people choose He'd be a tyrant.
He shows His love by giving us His own Son to pay the price for our stupidity so that we have a chance to survive the hell we've created for ourselves. Why? Because the consequences of sin is death. Not "hell", our actual existence ceasing. Some people look forward to that option, everyone is free to make that choice. I'm glad I have another choice available.
God's ability to save us from ourselves was put to the test by Satan when Jesus wandered in the desert (I won't bore you with too much details, if you are truly interested you can read it for yourself).
Satan told Jesus, just throw yourself off the cliff. God will save you, right? Jesus told him tempting God wasn't the answer. Satan said, why starve? If you're the Son of God you can just turn the rocks into bread. Jesus answered, man does not live by bread alone. The ability to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Your own parents (hardly omniscient) tell you not to do something and you often find out that when you do you paid dearly for your first hand experience. Just because you aren't mature enough to understand their request doesn't make the request invalid.
I'm thankful for my ability to make my own choices even if I wish God would push all the right buttons so I didn't hurt people without realizing that's what I've done.
Your ability to trap yourself in a logic corner doesn't make your logic sound. Your arguments are without proper study, preparation or the desire to understand. There is no wisdom in someone's words when it lacks application.
Example:
Three men pay $10 each for a room ($30 total). Discovering he has overcharged his guests by $5 he takes five $1 bills and goes to give them change. Realizing there is no way to split $5 evenly between three people he gets their permission to donate $2 to a worthy charity and gives each of the men $1 which means each man only paid $9 for their room.
On the way back to his office the manager does some math. If each man only paid $9 ($10 each, refunded $1 each) that makes $27 (9 x 3 = 27), plus the $2 he donated for them. 27 + 2 = 29.
What happened to the missing dollar?
The problem lies in your ability to look at things from one end (your premise) then approach it from the other (your conclusion) and meet somewhere in the middle (your argument). Faulty logic may make an argument SEEM valid, but it misses the mark.
Consider the possibility that your freedom to choose what you believe and how you believe it and practice it is a God given right. I accept that. So is my ability to believe and practice my own beliefs as long as it doesn't infringe on another's freedom of choice. As long as I don't accuse you of being ignorant for your choice or force my beliefs on you like a tyrannical parent, I should like to expect the same from you.
BUT, we all have the freedom to choose and the only thing that is guaranteed is there is something better for "me" to look forward to. I have Hope and Faith in a better life and it is my responsibility to share that hope with others. Live my life as an example of that faith and leave you to make your own choices.
How can that be bad?
If you take hope away from the people, if you take free will away from the masses, if you can justify your actions by declaring we live in a Godless society, how does that make your vision any greater?
NOTE: I apologize in advance if my own answer is viewed as faulty logic, there's much more to my understanding of the best answer. I skipped over a Bible study that takes most people weeks or months to complete for the sake of brevity. Never take someone's word for what is written in the Bible. Read it for yourself or discuss material that you're more familiar with.
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"Sin" exists and is allowed to because God gave us the freedom to choose. We're not robots that can be programmed and run down like little toys, being fixed when broken and put right back out to play.
If God behaved the way you proposed in your question there'd be no free will with any consequences whatsoever. The necessity to let this choice play out in our lives is to prove that His love and His plan is greater than our own and will work for any who choose to follow Him instead of their own hearts. As His creations He is proving to the universe (all of His creations, including Satan) that we aren't just a mistake that should be wiped out and reprogrammed. He loves us too much for that. One of the reasons why Satan got pissed off in the first place, jealousy.
The "greater good" is often mentioned because it's mentioned in the Bible (all things work together for good for them that love the Lord (paraphrased)), and for good reason in context. But there are horrible things that we can do to ourselves and others. If God stepped in and put a stop to it without letting people choose He'd be a tyrant.
He shows His love by giving us His own Son to pay the price for our stupidity so that we have a chance to survive the hell we've created for ourselves. Why? Because the consequences of sin is death. Not "hell", our actual existence ceasing. Some people look forward to that option, everyone is free to make that choice. I'm glad I have another choice available.
God's ability to save us from ourselves was put to the test by Satan when Jesus wandered in the desert (I won't bore you with too much details, if you are truly interested you can read it for yourself).
Satan told Jesus, just throw yourself off the cliff. God will save you, right? Jesus told him tempting God wasn't the answer. Satan said, why starve? If you're the Son of God you can just turn the rocks into bread. Jesus answered, man does not live by bread alone. The ability to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Your own parents (hardly omniscient) tell you not to do something and you often find out that when you do you paid dearly for your first hand experience. Just because you aren't mature enough to understand their request doesn't make the request invalid.
I'm thankful for my ability to make my own choices even if I wish God would push all the right buttons so I didn't hurt people without realizing that's what I've done.
Your ability to trap yourself in a logic corner doesn't make your logic sound. Your arguments are without proper study, preparation or the desire to understand. There is no wisdom in someone's words when it lacks application.
Example:
Three men pay $10 each for a room ($30 total). Discovering he has overcharged his guests by $5 he takes five $1 bills and goes to give them change. Realizing there is no way to split $5 evenly between three people he gets their permission to donate $2 to a worthy charity and gives each of the men $1 which means each man only paid $9 for their room.
On the way back to his office the manager does some math. If each man only paid $9 ($10 each, refunded $1 each) that makes $27 (9 x 3 = 27), plus the $2 he donated for them. 27 + 2 = 29.
What happened to the missing dollar?
The problem lies in your ability to look at things from one end (your premise) then approach it from the other (your conclusion) and meet somewhere in the middle (your argument). Faulty logic may make an argument SEEM valid, but it misses the mark.
Consider the possibility that your freedom to choose what you believe and how you believe it and practice it is a God given right. I accept that. So is my ability to believe and practice my own beliefs as long as it doesn't infringe on another's freedom of choice. As long as I don't accuse you of being ignorant for your choice or force my beliefs on you like a tyrannical parent, I should like to expect the same from you.
BUT, we all have the freedom to choose and the only thing that is guaranteed is there is something better for "me" to look forward to. I have Hope and Faith in a better life and it is my responsibility to share that hope with others. Live my life as an example of that faith and leave you to make your own choices.
How can that be bad?
If you take hope away from the people, if you take free will away from the masses, if you can justify your actions by declaring we live in a Godless society, how does that make your vision any greater?
NOTE: I apologize in advance if my own answer is viewed as faulty logic, there's much more to my understanding of the best answer. I skipped over a Bible study that takes most people weeks or months to complete for the sake of brevity. Never take someone's word for what is written in the Bible. Read it for yourself or discuss material that you're more familiar with.
November 29, 2009 12:23 AM
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In spite of the evil that is in the world, God is still omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), ultimately benevolent (the ultimate level of good) this is because He/She is a God, the beginning and the end of all things.
For me, evil things happens in this world because of our own choices not because God is unable to prevent, or not willing to prevent or does not know about it. He is willing to prevent evil to happen in this world, able to prevent it and perfectly knows about it., However, He does not want human beings to be a robot who will have no choice but to obey him. He is a God of love and being a God of Love, He cannot manipulate His people to do what He wants in order to prevent evil to happen in this world.
God cannot even force us to love Him because love in its true sense must be freely given. He just wait for us to respond freely to love Him in response to His love. That is what "free will" means. If we choose not to love, we also choose evil to happen in this world. It is not God who cause it, but us, who are afraid to love and face its consequent pain and joy.
However, because of God's benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience and His great love for us, He can turn evil consequences of our actions into good. If we allow God, the evil things that happens in our life because of our wrong choices, will eventually lead us to His loving and forgiving embrace that gives new meaning to our life.
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For me, evil things happens in this world because of our own choices not because God is unable to prevent, or not willing to prevent or does not know about it. He is willing to prevent evil to happen in this world, able to prevent it and perfectly knows about it., However, He does not want human beings to be a robot who will have no choice but to obey him. He is a God of love and being a God of Love, He cannot manipulate His people to do what He wants in order to prevent evil to happen in this world.
God cannot even force us to love Him because love in its true sense must be freely given. He just wait for us to respond freely to love Him in response to His love. That is what "free will" means. If we choose not to love, we also choose evil to happen in this world. It is not God who cause it, but us, who are afraid to love and face its consequent pain and joy.
However, because of God's benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience and His great love for us, He can turn evil consequences of our actions into good. If we allow God, the evil things that happens in our life because of our wrong choices, will eventually lead us to His loving and forgiving embrace that gives new meaning to our life.
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November 30, 2009 04:42 AM
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I'm another atheist. I'm militant in my belief that there is no god. I grew up Catholic and attended services in many Christian institutions including Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, 7th Day Adventist, and Protestant. I went to church EVERY Sunday, I went to Sunday school most Sundays. When I was a senior in high school I even taught Sunday school.
It was in teaching Sunday school that I first lost faith. I can't say exactly why, but waking up to the realization that god cannot exist took several years. I don't believe in ghosts, the easter bunny, santa, sasquatch, or crying statuary either. Those that cannot fathom a natural explanation for something will always fill that ignorance with some kind of story.
Religion is the oldest form of social control. All of the middle eastern religions have violent sects (and don't forget that Christianity IS a middle eastern religion) and treat women as inferior to men. With the exception of Judaism, practitioners are discouraged from asking questions. It gets pretty old pretty fast when an evangelical christian has to start answering every one of your questions with the "God is too complex to understand. You aren't capable of even hearing His voice. You couldn't comprehend his presence." Sounds like someone you tell a child who wants to see Santa deliver presents.
To answer your question, God of the bible does not exist. There may be some creator somewhere, but the bible was written by man and is fiction. Watch the first third of zeitgeistmovie.com (watch the whole thing but the first third discusses the mimickry in all religions and it's use as social control).
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It was in teaching Sunday school that I first lost faith. I can't say exactly why, but waking up to the realization that god cannot exist took several years. I don't believe in ghosts, the easter bunny, santa, sasquatch, or crying statuary either. Those that cannot fathom a natural explanation for something will always fill that ignorance with some kind of story.
Religion is the oldest form of social control. All of the middle eastern religions have violent sects (and don't forget that Christianity IS a middle eastern religion) and treat women as inferior to men. With the exception of Judaism, practitioners are discouraged from asking questions. It gets pretty old pretty fast when an evangelical christian has to start answering every one of your questions with the "God is too complex to understand. You aren't capable of even hearing His voice. You couldn't comprehend his presence." Sounds like someone you tell a child who wants to see Santa deliver presents.
To answer your question, God of the bible does not exist. There may be some creator somewhere, but the bible was written by man and is fiction. Watch the first third of zeitgeistmovie.com (watch the whole thing but the first third discusses the mimickry in all religions and it's use as social control).
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November 30, 2009 08:48 AM
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I'm not a Christian, so my God is not a "being", but this is my take on the evil thing. Without evil, who would need God? So maybe it's a selfish act on God's part to allow evil to exist so that people will worship him.
In my religion, or rather belief system, there is just a universal energy that supplies all things. Everyone knows there is negative energy and positive energy, so we believe that if negative energy abounds on earth (as it has in the last few years), then there will be little positive energy to draw on, so evil will prevail. Only when peoople start returning positive energy to the universal energy can the balance be restored.
Thinking of good and evil in terms that don't involve a sentient being makes it much less personal, so there is nothing to question. It's just Karma...what goes out comes back.
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In my religion, or rather belief system, there is just a universal energy that supplies all things. Everyone knows there is negative energy and positive energy, so we believe that if negative energy abounds on earth (as it has in the last few years), then there will be little positive energy to draw on, so evil will prevail. Only when peoople start returning positive energy to the universal energy can the balance be restored.
Thinking of good and evil in terms that don't involve a sentient being makes it much less personal, so there is nothing to question. It's just Karma...what goes out comes back.
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December 01, 2009 05:19 AM
own opinion and Holy Bible Helpful Answer?
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As a Catholic, I strongly believe in God even though I don't see Him in person. And I believe that evil exists because God gives us the free will. We are given choices and because we're children of Adam and Eve, we also have sinned. Why God has let the evil exist is unanswerable by humans. It's only Him who knows why.
See this quote from Isaiah 55:8–9 (NASB)
-quote-
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
-end quote-
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See this quote from Isaiah 55:8–9 (NASB)
-quote-
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
-end quote-
own opinion and Holy Bible Helpful Answer?
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