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Is it wrong for citizens to pose as victims to "set up" criminals?
A high crime area near the University of Washington has seen 10 assaults in the last two months. Some of the victims have armed themselves (legally) and are presenting themselves as bait. Is there anything MORALLY wrong with misleading criminals into thinking you are easy prey, or are the criminals getting what they deserve?
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October 29, 2009 08:46 PM
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I don't think what they're doing is particularly wise, though I sympathize with their cause. When police conduct stings, they don't just trick people into attacking them and then fight back, and hope they win. They have careful surveillance in place, teams of trained officers to assist, and experience defusing situations. With what these people are doing, I would worry that a) they would get hurt, b) they might be so eager that they'll end up shooting someone who wasn't really going to harm them, or c) they'll "bait" the correct person, but their confrontation will cause harm to others (not only immoral, but they could be charged with recklessly endangering the lives of passersby). As a Seattle resident, I certainly don't want to worry that I'll be walking by the UW and catch a stray bullet from some "bait" playing cowboy in the streets.
Generally, I am actually a big supporter of citizens seizing charge, and even of vigilante justice. I believe we have just as much of a right to defend ourselves, our city, and our property as cops do. I also believe the Seattle Police Department is completely inept and lacks any sort of real leadership. Frankly, any more, I would feel just as safe talking to a gang member as a cop, but it just doesn't sound like these particular vigilant citizens have thought things through. The U District is extremely population dense, and any misstep could cause serious injury to an innocent person. In Washington, you may also find yourself in prison for shooting someone if the prosecutor doesn't agree that that was the minimum amount of force necessary in order to control the situation. I also question whether or not these individuals would really be able to pull the trigger. You never, ever draw a gun unless you are willing to immediately fire it. Otherwise, you're just asking for that gun to be taken away and used against you.
Rather than acting as human bait, they should consider walking in groups, asking the campus and surrounding businesses to provide more outdoor lighting, and teaching assertive techniques to prevent being victimized like keeping your head up, being aware of your surroundings, etc.
Morally, I think vigilantism is okay. I think when criminals harm someone, they are surrendering their right to safety, even if the victim reacts with disproportionate force. However, in this situation I think the individuals are morally in the wrong because they are not taking into account the very high probability that someone innocent will needlessly get hurt.
Generally, I am actually a big supporter of citizens seizing charge, and even of vigilante justice. I believe we have just as much of a right to defend ourselves, our city, and our property as cops do. I also believe the Seattle Police Department is completely inept and lacks any sort of real leadership. Frankly, any more, I would feel just as safe talking to a gang member as a cop, but it just doesn't sound like these particular vigilant citizens have thought things through. The U District is extremely population dense, and any misstep could cause serious injury to an innocent person. In Washington, you may also find yourself in prison for shooting someone if the prosecutor doesn't agree that that was the minimum amount of force necessary in order to control the situation. I also question whether or not these individuals would really be able to pull the trigger. You never, ever draw a gun unless you are willing to immediately fire it. Otherwise, you're just asking for that gun to be taken away and used against you.
Rather than acting as human bait, they should consider walking in groups, asking the campus and surrounding businesses to provide more outdoor lighting, and teaching assertive techniques to prevent being victimized like keeping your head up, being aware of your surroundings, etc.
Morally, I think vigilantism is okay. I think when criminals harm someone, they are surrendering their right to safety, even if the victim reacts with disproportionate force. However, in this situation I think the individuals are morally in the wrong because they are not taking into account the very high probability that someone innocent will needlessly get hurt.
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October 29, 2009 02:04 PM
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Law enforcement does it all the time, setting up stings for all sorts of things, violent and non-violent. If a citizen wants to put themselves in danger to catch a criminal, that's their prerogative, as long as they aren't breaking the law. Police departments in high crime areas are overburdened, with two few officers and resources to get the job done as well as they would like. I think that citizens who are willing to help in whatever way should be applauded.
The danger would be that if the police are just "looking the other way" instead of formally condoning the actions of the citizens, they citizens may be harmed or killed, or they could be sued for harming someone else. Even if the police are condoning and supporting the actions, there is still civil liability to be considered.
Say they shoot someone. Even if the citizen was carrying a legal weapon, they would have to be charged with the crime and go through a trial, and even be liable civilly. Of course, the charges would probably be dismissed or they would get off on self-defense, but that would stay on their record, and their conscience, for the rest of their lives.
Sometimes people don't consider the negatives when they are trying to do something good.
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The danger would be that if the police are just "looking the other way" instead of formally condoning the actions of the citizens, they citizens may be harmed or killed, or they could be sued for harming someone else. Even if the police are condoning and supporting the actions, there is still civil liability to be considered.
Say they shoot someone. Even if the citizen was carrying a legal weapon, they would have to be charged with the crime and go through a trial, and even be liable civilly. Of course, the charges would probably be dismissed or they would get off on self-defense, but that would stay on their record, and their conscience, for the rest of their lives.
Sometimes people don't consider the negatives when they are trying to do something good.
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October 30, 2009 01:51 AM
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I wouldn't call it a moral issue more than an issue of safety. Police officers who perform stings and those who go undercover are trained to put themselves in dangerous situations and handle those situations accordingly and preferably without hurting anyone. Even trained professionals fail sometimes during their stings. I think untrained citizens would be far more at risk of getting hurt or hurting someone (or worse killing someone or being killed themselves). Therefore, while I understand it, I don't think it's particularly smart.
The point of sting operations and posing as bait to reel in criminals is to catch the criminals and charge them, not hurt them or "give them what's coming to them." The point is to get them off the street. Citizens can't do much as far as arresting criminals, whereas police can. Plus, police have back up and help when they perform stings; these citizens do not.
The issue of morality for misleading criminals in such a way as the people in Washington are doing, is not wrong, but is definitely not smart or safe (armed or not, they don't have the proper training to put themselves in that kind of situation).
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The point of sting operations and posing as bait to reel in criminals is to catch the criminals and charge them, not hurt them or "give them what's coming to them." The point is to get them off the street. Citizens can't do much as far as arresting criminals, whereas police can. Plus, police have back up and help when they perform stings; these citizens do not.
The issue of morality for misleading criminals in such a way as the people in Washington are doing, is not wrong, but is definitely not smart or safe (armed or not, they don't have the proper training to put themselves in that kind of situation).
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